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Outside Lands Podcast Episode 354: Masonic Cemetery

Today on WNP cemetery talk, we explore the history of the Masonic Cemetery on Lone Mountain, the disinterment in the 30s, and the encroachment by the University of San Francisco.
Outside Lands San Francisco Podcast - Nov 29, 2019

Outside Lands Podcast Episode 354: Masonic Cemetery Outside Lands Podcast Episode 354: Masonic Cemetery

Podcast Transcription

354 - Masonic Cemetery

Woody: [00:00:00] It’s Outside Lands San Francisco, the podcast of the Western Neighborhoods Project. I'm Woody LaBounty.

David: And I'm David Gallagher.

Woody: There's, David?

David: Yeah, yeah?

Woody: There's still no Nicole.

David: Nicole is still on assignment.

Woody: That's true. So, we're going to have to, like, do it like we did last week and just do it without her. We can do it though, we used, we did like a hundred episodes.

David: I, I miss her. I don't know if you miss her, but I miss her.

Woody: I'm definitely off-kilter, but we'll get through this podcast and maybe the next one and then she'll be back. So.

David: Yeah.

Woody: So last week I said we're going to tell people where the bodies are buried.

David: Do, oh, you're going to spill all!

Woody: I'm going to spill all, yes.

David: Yes.

Woody: You know, people are going to think that we're going to do a podcast on a cemetery, because we've had a tradition of talking about cemeteries in the Richmond District. We did [00:01:00] one on, I think Laurel Hill, the Lone Mountain Cemetery.

David: Yeah.

Woody: We did one, I think, on City Cemetery, out near the Legion of Honor. I think we just did an early podcast on cemeteries in general.

David: Yeah.

Woody: So, what are we going to talk about this week, David?

David: A cemetery.

Woody: Okay, great!

David: We're going to talk about, we're going to talk about the Masonic Cemetery.

Woody: So, let me think here. Where would the Masonic Cemetery be? If I was going to, like…

David:  Do you, did you go to college?

Woody: No. Well, I, I did for a short time, yes.

David: Well, do you know where there's a college in San Francisco?

Woody: Yes.

David: Called, “University of San Francisco.”

Woody: Yes. So that's where it was.

David: That's pretty much where the Masonic Cemetery was. So, it's generally, it's bounded by Fulton, Turk, Parker and Masonic Avenue. Although it was founded in 1864, and I don't think many of those streets were actually… [00:02:00]

Woody: No.

David: Graded or cut through at all at that time. It was just kind of on the slope of, of Lone Mountain on the, on the south side of the main peak of Lone Mountain.

Woody: Right. And I think this was always a little confusing to me when I was younger because I, I knew that there had been cemeteries around Lone Mountain.

David: Yeah.

Woody: And I knew they had been removed, and I knew that USF, of course, took over part of the land. But what seemed totally natural to me is that USF would've taken over the Catholic cemetery.

David: Right.

Woody: Because it's a Jesuit college.

David: Yeah.

Woody: And I would think they would've taken over the old Catholic cemetery, which was Calvary Cemetery.

David: Yeah.

Woody: But…

David: Which was, kind of, a little to the east of there.

Woody: Yeah. But it's across Masonic Avenue on the other side.

David: Yeah, yeah.

Woody: So, it's kind of strange. But you're right, a lot of USF was the old Masonic Cemetery.

David: Absolutely.

Woody: So, let's go back in time. You said this was in 1864, the cemetery was put in?

David: Yes.

Woody: That's pretty early.

David: That [00:03:00] is very early. And the, I can, I can tell you that the Daily Alta, August 26th, 1864…

Woody: That's a newspaper.

David: Yeah, that's a newspaper of the time. Had advertised the new Masonic Cemetery, right?

Woody: That was just being built or created.

David: That was just, that had just been designated.

Woody: Okay.

David: I don't think there was any grading. I don't think there was any, I don't think there were sylvan paths running through it, or they…

Woody: They’d just bought the land.

David: Just bought the land and were going to sell these lots off. It's kind of funny, we do so many podcasts on housing developments and, and west side areas that got, that went from rural to suburban to urban.

Woody: Right.

David: And they're always run by some developer who was telling you how great this place was to live.

Woody: Right.

David: And what a what wonderful weather there was.

Woody: Right.

David: And I want to read to you this ad.

Woody: For a [00:04:00] cemetery!

David: For a cemetery!

Woody: Well, the weather probably wouldn't matter, so.

David: In 1864.

Woody: Yeah, okay.

David: It says, “The choice lots in the Masonic Cemetery will be disposed by auction on Saturday evening, August 27th, 1864, at Masonic Hall on Montgomery Street.” Which was different than the, than the Temple that was at Montgomery and Post. Anyway.

Woody: Right.

David: “The Cemetery Association is incorporated under state law and parties purchasing are entitled to inter the remains of their deceased relatives at their options. The cemetery grounds compose a tract of some thirty acres south of Lone Mountain, and the site is not surpassed by any in the United States.”

Woody: Really?

David: Yeah.

Woody: It can't be surpassed.

David: It's, it's the best.

Woody: In the entire United States.

David: All of the United States.

Woody: Okay.

David: “The proceeds of the sale of lots are devoted to the decoration of the grounds, which haven't been decorated yet.”

Woody: Right. [00:05:00]

David: “And to the aid of the Masonic Board of Relief.” So, this reads like just a real estate ad.

Woody: Yeah.

David: Where it's like, oh, I mean, it could be even more flowery, right? But it's like, “These grounds shall not be surpassed and your, and your relatives will, will,” you know…

Woody: “Will love it!”

David: “Reside forever!”

Woody: So, we have to, we have to explain a couple things. One is that this is before Golden Gate Park, for example.

David: Yeah.

Woody: And before a lot of public parks are created. So, people would go to cemetery grounds on Sundays, not only to visit the relatives, but to see the beautiful, sort of, landscaping.

David: Yeah.

Woody: And experience it like a park. So that's one thing that people would want. But the second thing is: this unsurpassed plot of land in 1864? What do you think it looked like?

David: I think it was kind of wind swept, scrubby, hilly, sandy spot. [00:06:00]

Woody: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think, it doesn't even like, it has the mountain in the way. You can't even see the bay probably. I mean, or the Golden Gate, but maybe a little bit.

David: Right.

Woody: Okay, so now I want to ask a question about this whole idea of selling lots in a cemetery and that it's at the Masonic Hall.

David: Yeah.

Woody: And that the Masons are running this, what is the deal here with the Masons?

David: So, the, who are the Masons, right?

Woody: Yeah. What is a Masonic thing?

David: So, I, you know, there are probably people listening that have a very, very strong understanding of what this fraternal organization is.

Woody: And probably others who are, have heard all these stories and have a very mistaken understanding…

David: Sure.

Woody: Of Masons, okay.

David: Okay. The Freemasons, I'm going to read you something right off the Freemasons website. Because the Masons still exist, of course.

Woody: Yeah.

David: “In the Middle Ages, the term ‘Freemason’ was awarded to highly skilled stone masons who were hired as free agents to build castles and cathedrals in England and [00:07:00] Scotland.” Okay?

Woody: Yeah, I get that.

David: “Because of the inherent danger of their work, stone masons formed local organizations called ‘Lodges’ to take care of the sick and injured members, as well as widows and orphans of those who were killed on the job.”

Woody: Right. It's like an insurance policy almost or something. You're like part of a…

David: Sort of.

Woody: A guild or something.

David: Yeah, I mean, it's like a union.

Woody: Yeah.

David: Yeah. “Eventually men who were not skilled stone masons wanted to join the group for the many advantages it offered.” Which we don't know what those advantages are exactly. “These men were known as Accepted Masons.” So, we talk about “Free” and “Accepted” Masons.

Woody: Right.

David: “This is how the group began to shift from a craft guild to a fraternity.” So, it's kind of a big, it's kind of a, it's a big social order, right?

Woody: A fraternal organization.

David: A fraternal organization.

Woody: Yeah. Because you're supposed to be, [00:08:00] you have to be a man to be in the Masons.

David: Yeah.

Woody: First of all. And it really transformed to being like a networking thing, right?

David: I think so.

Woody: Yeah. So, you know, like, George Washington was a Mason. And so, then you started having all these very powerful people who were also brothers in the sense that they belong to the same fraternal organization. And then that spurred all these conspiracy theories and secret handshakes.

David: Right.

Woody: And all this stuff that is mostly,

David: And the Masons are like really, usually like the, like the captains of industry and very influential people. I think that something like nineteen California governors have been Masons.

Woody: Yeah. Real quick about fraternal organizations: they became incredibly popular in the 19th century. So that all these extra organizations started being formed so that people would have their clubs for business and for other things. So, the Odd Fellows and my great-great-grandfather had the Society of Old Friends, which was another fraternal organization. Knights of Templar, you know, all these things.

David: Sure.

Woody: And then even [00:09:00] the Catholics, who weren't supposed to be part of these things because they seem kind of unreligious in a sense, form the Knights of Columbus.

David: Right.

Woody: Their own fraternal organization.

David: Funny.

Woody: Okay, so you belong to the Masons, this is like one of the benefits is that you can be in the Masonic Cemetery?

David: I, I believe so. Although I believe that anyone could buy a plot.

Woody: Okay.

David: In the cemetery, although primarily Masons did it. And we want to point out that 1864, this plot on Lone Mountain was outside the city limits. Right?

Woody: Right. But that was the idea, they bought those cemetery plots, the organizations did, because they were supposed to be beyond development.

David: Right.

Woody: And so, it was like, fine, it's like the countryside. And anyway, so it was like they're buying it with the state's approval.

David: Yeah.

Woody: Yeah, okay, so the Masonic Cemetery gets started.

David: Yes. And it goes,

Woody: And they start burying people, I’m guessing.

David: They start burying people. They buried lots of, lots of people. I mean, [00:10:00] there's, I was trying to do some research and find out who was buried there, and there's just dozens and dozens of obituaries of various captains of industry and businessmen.

Woody: Lawyers.

David: And lawyers,

Woody: Judges.

David: And doctors and all kinds of people. Pioneers, judges, and all of these guys who got big obituaries were all Masons.

Woody: Right.

David: Somebody who you may have heard of, A.P. Hotaling [pronounces it ho-TALL-ing], was kept there waiting for his cremation, so that they, they had a big funeral downtown.

Woody: We had, so I always said Hotaling [pronounces it HOTA-ling]. Now I know we had Debbie last week, telling me I pronounce things wrong. But I always thought his last name was Hotaling, like Hotaling Whiskey.

David: I thought that too until somebody laughed at me once when I said, “Hotaling” and then they said, it's “ho-TALL-ing.” And I'm like, okay.

Woody: How do they know!?

David: I don't think anybody knows how to pronounce it, but who is A.P. Hotaling?

Woody: Well, I, well, the reason I know him is because he was a big whiskey merchant.

David: Right.

Woody: And the whole, that's [00:11:00] that whole doggerel after the earthquake.

David: Right.

Woody: Where his whiskey warehouse survives the fire. And so, the idea is that people said the earthquake and fire of 1906 was God's wrath.

David: Yeah.

Woody: For the city being sinful. And so, this poet wrote this thing that, “If,” I'm going to, I'm going to blow it because I don't remember it offhand.

David: Yeah.

Woody: But it's something like, “If God had wanted to punish the city for being over frisky.”

David: Yeah.

Woody: “Why did he let the churches burn down and save Hotaling’s whiskey?”

David: Yeah.

Woody: So that's why I know his name mostly, but he, yeah, he, you know what else he had? The Ocean Beach Pavilion.

David: That's right.

Woody: He was the guy who was behind the big roadhouse that was out at Ocean Beach. Anyway, so he was a Mason, you're saying?

David: Yeah, I believe so.

Woody: But so, they're all great, they're all great.

David: Everybody, apparently, was fantastic. Great upstanding citizens who were buried in, in the Masonic Cemetery, with [00:12:00] one exception that I found.

Woody: Okay. Who is that?

David: And this is July 1893. William Watts’ obituary in the Morning Call.

Woody: Another newspaper.

David: Yeah.

Woody: Let me read it.

David: I'm going to read this to you.

Woody: Let me read it, I want to read it.

David: All right, you can read it.

Woody: Because I liked it. “William Watts is an example of the tendency of mankind to speak ill of the dead.”

David: No speak, and it, I wanted to correct you. It was “Speak no ill.”

Woody: Oh, right. Okay. “When live, he was the subject of excray,” oh, I shouldn't read this, “exer-cration?”

David: Excration.

Woody: “Excration. And the harshest words that could be uttered were not thought unjust when applied to him. But: when he lay in the coffin, tears were shed for him. Wailing was indulged in on his account. And flowers were placed above and around him to show that he had human love.”

David: What!?

Woody: “William Watts was the mate of the ship [00:13:00] Gatherer, and in that capacity behaved so cruelly to the sailors under him, that for years his name was a byword on land and sea for ‘fiendishness.’ He seemed a monster. When the ship reached port and the tales were told of his scourging of the sailors and his infliction of wounds on them with belaying pins, brass knuckles, and other implements. The people regarded him with detestation.”

David: Detestation.

Woody: “Detestation. His atrocities were many.”

David: I shouldn't have let you read that.

Woody: So, you're telling me that basically this guy, everybody was nice at his funeral, but the newspaper’s saying…

David: Yeah, there was much…

Woody: He was a jerk, and everybody hated him.

David: There was much crying and hand wringing. And I didn't want to, you know, since Nicole isn't here, I didn't want to, I wanted to give a nod to her and go deep into the William Watts…

Woody: Career?

David: Story.

Woody: Story, yeah.

David: And I found, and there was a lot of stuff on William Watts, but I…

Woody: This corroborated, you're saying. [00:14:00]

David: I gave you one, I gave you one other article there that, that's dated from…

Woody: 1886

David: Earlier when he was still alive.

Woody: Okay, he's still alive. And here's another article and it says, “The President, last Monday,” the President of the United States?

David: Yes.

Woody: “Pardoned William Watts, the notorious mate of the ship Gatherer. On March 5th, 1884, this man was sentenced to San Quentin for a term of six years for perpetuating the most fiendish and inhuman outrages besides which the cruelties of the Inquisition were mere child's play. His career as a fiend is without compare, and to compare him with the demons of hell would disparage the latter amiable gentlemen.” So, the President of the United States pardoned him?

David: Why do you suppose that was?

Woody: Because the President was a Mason.

David: Could be.

Woody: So that's one of the benefits.

David: Yeah, I guess so.

Woody: You could get pardoned for any crime.

David: And he got buried in the Masonic Cemetery. But we would, Woody, we would [00:15:00] be…

Woody: Remiss?

David: Well remiss, if we did not mention, probably, the most famous resident of Masonic Cemetery.

Woody: Ironically.

David: Yeah.

Woody: The most famous, in a sense.

David: Ironically, the most famous, and that is Emperor Norton.

Woody: Okay, so the Emperor Norton is buried, or was buried, in the Masonic Cemetery. Was he a Mason?

David: I'm not sure. But January 1880, Emperor Norton's funeral. “J.G. Eastland a millionaire, California pioneer, and Mason, paid for Norton's plot in the Masonic cemetery and a morbidly curious crowd flocked toward the coroner's office to view the imperial clay. The emperor lay in his coffin, dressed in a black satin robe, white tuberose placed in in the lapel. His mustache, an imperial, combed neater than he was wont to keep them.”

Woody: So, an imperial, like a beard?

David: I think so, yeah.

Woody: Okay, all right.

David: “And [00:16:00] his face blanched in his sleep of death, a ghastly object of attraction. When the time came for the funeral, it arrived an immense gathering was at the door, and the crowding in the undertaking establishment were requiring the efforts of several policemen to preserve the quiet.”

Woody: So, for people who just tuned in, Emperor Norton was a very famous eccentric character. I mean, in the city he, he had lodgings, but he kind of came off as a street person.

David: Right.

Woody: Right? And he dressed in a military uniform and…

David: He had his own legal tender, money, that he published.

Woody: That he, that apparently actually bought him things.

David: Right.

Woody: And, and so he was kind of a, he was kind of, people took him to their hearts as just part of the city.

David: Right.

Woody: Even, even though he was generally depicted as being “touched in the head.”

David: Yes.

Woody: And so, when he died, thousands of people show [00:17:00] up for his funeral.

David: Yes.

Woody: Okay. And he was there.

David: So, he was probably the, he was the most famous person I could find that was buried in…

Woody: Today.

David: Masonic Cemetery.

Woody: That we know today.

David: Yeah.

Woody: Yeah, because we don't know who, even how to pronounce Hotaling's name.

David: Yes, it's true.

Woody: So, okay.

David: So, let's move on.

Woody: Yeah, so what happened? So, this is all happening from 1860s to the 20th century? Early…

David: Almost. To 1900. 1900, as we've mentioned before in earlier podcasts, burials were outlawed in San Francisco.

Woody: Right, which basically kills the cemetery. Oh, “kills.” Well, it basically sucks dry the, the revenue that the cemeteries depended on to keep operating.

David: Right, because they, they run on new burials.

Woody: Right.

David: So, when the, when those stop, then they really can't, they can't support themselves anymore.

Woody: Right, they fall into disrepair.

David: And it's a long, slow decline for the, all of the cemeteries, including Masonic.

Woody: Yeah, there's no such thing as, now they charge you for [00:18:00] perpetual care, you know?

David: Right.

Woody: Well, they didn't have that then. So, nobody's tending the graves, nobody's tending the fences, the landscaping.

David: Yeah. Well, so when they were outlawed, there were 26,000 remains interred at Masonic Cemetery. And, and of course the Masons, they had a lucrative business of, of burying people, I guess.

Woody: A little sideline.

David: So, they built, they built a new cemetery in the town of Colma and this is known as “Woodlawn Cemetery” today.

Woody: Still there, still there.

David: Yeah. And it was built by the Masonic Cemetery Association.

Woody: Right.

David: Yeah.

Woody: So then people started getting buried in Woodlawn.

David: Right.

Woody: And a lot of other cemeteries opened in Colma after this, 1900. All right, but Masonic Cemetery's still there?

David: It's still there.

Woody: And then it starts, like, just getting rundown. And I, I know you have this article from 1930 and The Chronicle is saying, “Masonic Cemetery is a wilderness covered with weeds and [00:19:00] shrubs and frequented by persons of loose character.”

David: Uh-oh.

Woody: “Income since the 1900 closure has dwindled” to?

David: $13 a year. How could the? How?

Woody: I don't even know where that money comes from.

David: Who's paying? Who's paying that?

Woody: I don't know. “Graves are uncared for, vandals have desecrated monuments, vaults, and tombstones. And thieves have stolen everything movable, including copper and brass.” This is back when the city was great, unlike today. You know, they had loose characters running through the cemetery, stealing things.

David: Absolutely.

Woody: The Association, so then basically, steps in to buy the land. They, they have the land in a sense, but they need to, like, claim ownership.

David: The weird thing is, and you recall from earlier in the podcast, where we said that they sold the plots.

Woody: Individual lots.

David: To the people.

Woody: Yeah.

David: Oh, so the individuals owned those plots of land.

Woody: Right, right. Little twenty-foot spot or something.

David: Yeah.

Woody: So, they've, they basically have to come up with a way [00:20:00] to circumvent that and sue to get all of the land so that they can…

David: So that they can clear it.

Woody: Clear it, sell the land. And move the bodies.

David: And move the bodies. By this time, I mean, individuals have moved their loved ones, various things. By that time there were 14,000 remaining bodies.

Woody: Because in the ‘20s the Board of Supervisors basically wanted all the bodies moved out of the city.

David: Right.

Woody: And there were lawsuits and a lot of things that prevented that for a long time. And finally, in 1930, which is what we were talking about, the Supreme Court doesn't hear an appeal, essentially, about this and so that opens everything up.

David: That ends the final suit from people who owned little plots of land in the, in the Masonic Cemetery.

Woody: Right. So, the ‘30s is when Masonic Cemetery gets removed, right?

David: Yeah.

Woody: The, that's when the University of San Francisco starts buying up the land, right?

David: Right. They, so, on that, so kind of on a [00:21:00] little notch of the Masonic Cemetery is where St. Ignatius…

Woody: The church is.

David: The church is, right?

Woody: But that was built in like 1914.

David: Right.

Woody: Yeah.

David: And next to it they built, I believe they built the first part of USF right next to the church.

Woody: Okay.

David: On what's now a big lawn, I believe. And so, USF starts to eyeball the rest of the, the cemetery and they think this is a good place to grow into. And so, they try to get parts of it. They had a huge, like, fundraising effort in the newspaper and the Chronicle, and the Examiner both supported this with large newspaper stories and, and pictures and stuff. Trying to raise $350,000 to buy the cemetery.

Woody: And they eventually do, right?

David: They eventually buy most of it.

Woody: Okay.

David: They end up buying about half of it. I mean, and, and even [00:22:00] after they've bought it, there were still ads for people to “come and remove your, your remains from the, from the Masonic Cemetery” all the way up until 1932.

Woody: No, ’32? ‘30?

David: Yeah.

Woody: Oh, okay. Because didn't we have pictures, like, that were in the air and you could still see monuments and pathways? But that's after that.

David: So, what we have is the 1938 aerial of the, of all of the cemeteries, right? And you can still see, you could see USF getting built and you still see, kind of, paths and empty spaces that, that are apparently the cemetery. But I think that most of the monuments were, were gone by that time.

Woody: And then the part that they didn't buy, those are little housing developments, little mini ones, right? Like University Terrace, I think, is called one part.  

David: Right. There's one little stretch, as you know, that's right between the Lone Mountain College site and USF. That has about five of those streets, Tamalpais Street.

Woody: Yeah. So that was turned over for [00:23:00] housing.

David: Right. And those were built, kind of in the, in the late ‘30s. In probably 1936, 1937.

Woody: So, David, whenever we do a cemetery podcast, it gets down to this, which is: did all the bodies get moved?

David: Yes.

Woody: They did?

David: Probably. So, I do believe, I do believe all the bodies got moved. I think that things like, the bodies got moved, but they left the caskets, they left, they didn't, they weren't real…

Woody: Oh. Handles, fittings.

David: Yeah, different things. Because in 2011…

Woody: Not that long ago.

David: Eight years ago, yeah. The USF was building the new Science Center and they ended up digging up two dozen caskets.

Woody: Oh, okay.

David: But not very many bodies. They did find, they found two skulls.

Woody: Oh, just the skulls.

David: But not a whole, not whole skeletons and not whole…

Woody: So.

David: So it's like when the bodies got moved, they would just grab the, and, you know, probably the, the [00:24:00] caskets, the coffins were, were…

Woody: Falling apart.

David: Yeah, were rotting away and stuff. So.

Woody: So, I remember when we look at photos of them clearing the cemeteries, the worst one, that just looks bad, is the Masonic one. I remember there's, like, pictures in the paper or something and you can see these workmen, like, kind of got these caskets and bones and it just looks very amateurish.

David: Yeah. And they just kind of put them in a cardboard box.

Woody: Yeah.

David: And marked the box or whatever.

Woody: It didn't seem very, I don't know, but anyway.

David: Very, very respectful.

Woody: I'll take your word for it.

David: I, well.

Woody: Well, we're getting through the…

David: I'm sure there's some,

Woody: There might be a leg bone or two?

David: There might be something left.

Woody: All right, well, we're getting through the cemeteries. Soon we'll hit them all, but for now, it's time for the Pearl of the Podcast. David, what's the Pearl of the Podcast?

David: You asked me earlier whether all the bodies got moved.

Woody: Did they all?

David: And I know for [00:25:00] sure that one did.

Woody: Okay, out of 28,000.

David: And that was Emperor Norton. He was reinterred at Woodlawn Cemetery on June 30th, 1934, with great pomp and circumstance. John McLaren represented the city and people from the California Historical Society and the Society of California Pioneers were also there to pay their respects. And you can go to visit Norton's grave today at Woodlawn.

Woody: Oh, neat. Well, I might do that.

David: Yeah.

Woody: Cool. Well now it's time for listener mail. David, how does somebody send in some listener mail for us to get?

David: Woody, it’s simple. You write an email, you're familiar with that?

Woody: I am.

David: You write an email to podcast@outsidelands.org and send in all your thoughts and corrections and words of wisdom [00:26:00] and…

Woody: Anecdotes?

David: Anything you want.

Woody: All right. Aphorisms?

David: Yes.

Woody: Okay. So, did we get any of those things?

David: We did.

Woody: Okay. What did we get?

David: We got a message from Nicolette.

Woody: Not Nicole?

David: No, Nicolette.

Woody: Nicolette.

David: Nicolette says, “David! Woody! Nicole!”

Woody: Oh, she knows the whole routine.

David: Nicole is our other host that's out on assignment today.

Woody: Yeah.

David: She says, “I'm still working my way through your excellent podcast. I am currently on number 153.

Woody: Oh, no, there's a lot to go.

David: Yeah. She says, “It's pretty good.” She's been rolling through them; it helps that she has a long commute. She says our “podcast saved [her] sanity during many traffic jams. [She] loves [her] hometown, and your podcast adds rich details to [her] knowledge” which, “makes me love San Francisco even more.” I'm mixing my…

Woody: You are!

David: My pronouns.

Woody: People make fun of the way I…

David: Like crazy.

Woody: Pronounce things, but you're like changing tenses every three words.

David: I'm teaching the pronouns all over the [00:27:00] place. Anyway, that's it. Thanks, thanks so much for the kind words, Nicolette.

Woody: Yeah, so Nicolette has a coworker, who's also listening to the podcast and is farther ahead and told Nicolette that we had read one of Nicolette's emails on the air.

David: Oh, spoiler alert!

Woody: But she's not there yet.

David: So, is there any other mail?

Woody: There is. Matt wrote in and said, “Love the Taraval Pub episode.” Now, that is the one we did a couple weeks ago.

David: Yeah.

Woody: About The Sands which was on 46th and Taraval.

David: Right, now a synagogue, right?

Woody: Right. He writes, “Number one: Merl Saunders was a longtime collaborator with Jerry Garcia.”

David: Garcia.

Woody: “And supposedly one of Jerry's all-time favorites. Saunders played a huge role supporting Garcia after he went into a diabetic coma in 1974.”

David: Yeah.

Woody: That seems early. Anyway, “It's amazing to me that Garcia was [00:28:00] playing rooms that small in ‘74. Arguably the best year of his career.  Number two:”

David: Oh!

Woody: “My brother lives at 48th and Taraval.”

David: Ooh!

Woody: Ooh, thank you for telling us. “Number three: regarding bookmaking.” Because they had a, there was a gambling den that was found.

David: Yeah, there was a gambling aspect in that.

Woody: “I just finished a book about the Tenderloin by Randy Shaw.” And Randy Shaw is a big Tenderloin historian and advocate.

David: Yeah.

Woody: “One of his big points in the book was that the ‘Loin’s decline in the 1930s was due to illegal gambling being shut down.” I don't know how it would decline if the gambling is shut down, I guess maybe other business declined. “Do we know where the gambling went after it got kicked out of the ‘Loin? 47th and Taraval?” Maybe.

David: It must have gone underground, more underground than it was in the Tenderloin.

Woody: I was going to say that it was. I'm not for it being called “’Loin,” by the way.

David: Yeah.

Woody: I'm agin it.

David: You're, you're agin it?

Woody: I'm agin it. [00:29:00]

David: Do you like “The TL” instead?

Woody: No. I kind of feel like Tenderloin is one of those things, you have to say the whole thing.

David: Okay, me too.

Woody: I'm not with him on that, but.

David: I'm with you.

Woody: But thanks for writing in Matt. And other people, please write in. Tell us what we're mispronouncing, how we're messing up our pronouns, and what you would prefer neighborhoods to be called. But now it's time for events. David, if I go to outsidelands.org/events?

David: Yeah, you, you should probably get there.

Woody: I will see some events.

David: You could just go to outsidelands.org and right in the middle column is the, is the next event.

Woody: Okay.

David: And you can find other future events there too.

Woody: All right. Do we have any other future events coming up that I should know about?

David: Do we?!

Woody: Isn't there one like next week?

David: Do we? Yes!

Woody: Yes, there is. What is it?

David: It's, it's why, it's the holiday event of the season!

Woody: Okay.

David: It's the holiday, we're having an open house at our Home for History, 1617 [00:30:00] Balboa, next Saturday, December 7th, from 11-2:00 PM.

Woody: Take that Nutcracker! We're the holiday event of the season! Okay, we're going to have grilled cheese sandwiches.

David: Absolutely. We're going to be unveiling our exhibition program with amazing photography of the now demolished S.F. Ice Arena by photographer Darcie Westerlund, who, who had the presence of mind to photograph the Ice Arena in the mid-‘80s.

Woody: Ah!

 David: When…

Woody: In its later years.

David: Yeah. And they're beautiful pictures. Big and, and, yeah, and Darcie will be there.

Woody: Well, as long as they're big and she's there, I'm there!

David: Okay.

Woody: Because I…

David: And there's grilled cheese sandwiches.

Woody: And grilled cheese sandwiches. And, and beyond.

David: And Nicole will be there.

Woody: Is that a word? Beyond.

David: Beyond.

Woody: See, okay, there you go. All right, so, I'm just going to keep this up. The next day is San Francisco Heritage's Open House. At the…

David: More free [00:31:00] food!

Woody: Yeah. At the Haas-Lilienthal House on Franklin and Jackson.

David: Yeah.

Woody: And that's, we're open 12:00 to 3:00.

David: Okay.

Woody: So, I recommend you come by if you haven't seen this beautiful, 1886 Queen Anne Victorian mansion.

David: Will you be able to wander around the house?

Woody: To a certain extent. We'll have docents there, who will be able to show you like the upstairs.

David: Oh, cool.

Woody: But the main floor, yeah, you can wander around and downstairs there's a train.

David: Oh yeah, I know, I love that train.

Woody: All right, so that's what's coming up and I'm going to give you a preview for what's coming up next week, which is not only the Open House, but another podcast. And the preview is: we will be going to where the west coast’s first public housing project was supposed to be.

David: But it wasn't.

Woody: I didn't say that! I said it was supposed to be, I didn't say it didn't.

David: Oh, okay, sorry.

Woody: I'll see you then.

David: Byee!

Woody: Bye.

Ian: Outside Lands San Francisco is recorded by Ian Hadley. [00:32:00] Content creation and media production at ihadley.com.

Nicole: To learn more about the Western Neighborhoods Project and more on San Francisco history, go to outsidelands.org. You can also find us on social media at Facebook, which is outsidelands with an S, at Twitter which is outsidelandz with a Z, and on Instagram which is outsidelandz also with a Z. And check out our historic San Francisco images website at openssfhistory.org.

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